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Туринская плащаница - что это?
фальшивка и надувательство 63%  63%  [ 12 ]
Божественное Чудо 37%  37%  [ 7 ]
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 Заголовок сообщения: Туринская плащаница
СообщениеДобавлено: Чт окт 25, 2007 9:18 pm 

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Вашему вниманию предоставляется книга Е.Л. Дулумана:
"Туринская плащаница" историческая правда вместо "чудес" вокруг да около"

которую вы можете прочитать зайдя по ссылке:

http://evduluman.narod.ru/Sindon.htm

Хотелось бы узнать мнение форумчан по этому поводу.

_________________
Да наставит нас Господ на Истинный Путь.


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Был в прошлом году в Минске, Красный костел в центре. Там одна из 6 (или шестая) копия плащаници висит. Ниче впечатлительного. Люди ходят, что-то чуствуют смотря на нее и находясь рядом. ... Но при чем здесь Б-г? Что они чуствуют и плачут.

_________________
Что там за ветхой занавеской тьмы.
В гаданиях запутались умы,
Когда же, с треском, рухнет занавеска,
Увидят все как ошибались мы


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А как люди проголосовавшие за то что Туринская плащаница это Божественное чудо обьясняют результаты научных экспериментов и официальное заявление Католической Церкви(размещенные в конце приведенной мною статьи)??????

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Да наставит нас Господ на Истинный Путь.


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ДРУГ,

А ты знаешь что за фрукт этот Дулуман? Если нет, советую ознакомиться.

_________________
пока еще не добежал..


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ДРУГ,

А ты знаешь что за фрукт этот Дулуман? Если нет, советую ознакомиться.

Да действительно его информацию нужно проверять.Однако я те же цифры видел на православном сайте.Там признавали что три независимые лаборатории пришли именно к таким выводам. Но говорили мол что это ошибка которая возникла вследствии либо пожара, либо заплаты и т.д. :D
Но как бы там ни было. Вот ведь есть свидетели которые сами видели очередную "подлинную" плашаницу. :wink:
разве может быть столько подлинных плащаниц?????? :D

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Да наставит нас Господ на Истинный Путь.


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Откуда: Новокузнецк
Гитлер в свое время искал копье, которым Иисуса убили. Нашел, а в наши дни доказали, что копье пятым веком н.э. датируется. Прокол такой вот. А с плащаницей так вообще столько темных историй связано.

_________________
Отстоим свой отчий дом
Где с рождения живем.
Защитим страну и простой люд... (с) Коловрат


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Мне не понятно почему Плащаница сохранилась, а Каменные скрижали нет?
И вообще, если хотите, то могу три фильма про Плащаницу выложить.

_________________
Зачем иметь чувство юмора, когда можно иметь власть над теми, кто имеет чувство юмора.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Туринская плащаница
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Хоть и старая информация но все же.
В тему о материальных свидетельствах о Христе.
http://www.grani.ru/Society/History/m.12449.html
Цитата:
"-Французский филолог Андри Лемэр обнаружил в частной коллекции в Израиле известняковый ящичек, в котором, судя по надписи на арамейском, хранились останки "Иакова, сына Иосифа, брата Иисуса". Об этом пишет Washington Post. По словам владельца коллекции, этот ящик ранее хранился в древней пещере в Иерусалиме. Такие ящики действительно служили в качестве похоронных урн примерно с 20 года до н.э. до 70 года н.э."

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Язычник.


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Мне кажется, скоро миру будут предъявлены мощи самого Иисуса, причем это сделают не какие-нибудь атеисты, а сами клерикалы, которые будут на этом хорошо зарабатывать. Представляете, сколько людей будет исцеляться от поклонения этим мощам? Правда, есть небольшая проблема с тем, как объяснить факт вознесения Иисуса на небо, но тут можно просто скопипастить учение ОСБ о том, что Иисус воскрес и вознесся "духовно", а тело Его осталось на земле.

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Замість моветону - комільфо!


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Лютер, кажись, говорил, что 18 из 12 апостолов похоронены в Испании.


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THE SHROUD OF TURIN
Do you need tangible proof for your beliefs? Some people do
and the Shroud of Turin provides it for many Christians.
They claim it is the true burial cloth of Jesus.
The debate is between the advocates, who believe it is the
true burial shroud of Jesus, and the skeptics, who believe it
is a work of art. You decide.
The clues
1. The Shroud of Turin is a 4.3 metre long cloth of linen
with a full length human image that is considered to be
a likeness of Christ.
2. The image contains both the front and back of a man,
as if he had been laid on the cloth with his feet at one
end.The cloth was then folded over his head to cover
the front of his body.
3. The likeness is a negative image.That is, the prominent
points, such as the nose and eyebrows, are dark, while
sunken parts, such as the eyes and neck, are light. In a
normal photograph the nose and eyebrows are usually
light, while the eyes and neck are dark.
4. The likeness of Christ is the thin, heavily bearded man
shown in many religious art works.
5. Wounds on the body are visible on the back, chest and
face with puncture marks on the feet, hands and one
20
side.This is consistent with the description of Christ’s
crucifixion and spearing in the side.
6. There are reddish bloodstains on the image at the
wrists, feet and on one side of the body. There are
more smaller bloodstains around the head, consistent
with the wearing of a crown of thorns.
7. Iron and protein, as are found in blood, are present in
the areas of the bloodstains.
8. Porphyrins, also found in blood, are present in the area
of the bloodstains.
9. Over the eyes are two round darker rings, considered
by some to be coins.
10. Pollen which is consistent with the known species
around Jerusalem has been found on the cloth.
11. The linen is a herringbone-twill weave.
12. The image only appears on the surface of the linen on
one side. It does not penetrate the fibres.
13. The negative nature of the image was not realised until
the shroud was photographed in 1898. Photography
was unknown in the Middle Ages or before. The
positive image, as viewed on the shroud, is not particularly
impressive. It is in the negative image that the
true strength and likeness is revealed.
14. Thirty American and a smaller number of European
scientists examined the shroud minutely in October of
1978 over five days and reports from that group have
been quoted widely as authenticating the cloth as
being the burial shroud of Christ.
15. The Shroud of Turin Research Project (STURP) group
of scientists has produced a theory, called the ‘flash
photolysis’ theory, which explains the image in terms
of the energy generated by the body of Christ at the
moment of resurrection.
16. An Associated Press report on 20 November 1979
said: ‘The scientist who led the team that investigated
the Shroud of Turin last year says evidence so far
indicates that the linen did in fact wrap the crucified
body of Jesus Christ’.The scientist was then quoted as
The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal 21
saying: ‘Every one of the scientists I have talked to
believe the cloth is authentic’.
17. One of the STURP scientists, on the ABC-TV
(America) network show 20/20 at Easter 1981, said:
‘The likelihood of this being a forgery is less than one
in a million, in my opinion’.
18. Skeptics have maintained that it is a work of art
created by an artist in the Middle Ages.
19. An artist of that time could not have known about
negative images and photography.
20. There is no sign of brush strokes on the shroud. It
cannot have been painted.
Advocates also say:
21. The blood flows and anatomical details and pathology
of crucifixion are correct and beyond the knowledge
of the artists in the Middle Ages.
22. Artistic methods have been ruled out as a possibility.
23. The shroud is consistent with biblical descriptions of
the burial of Jesus.
24. The shroud image contains unique 3D information
which enables a recreation of the physical body of
Jesus. This proof that the shroud could not be
manmade was proposed with much mathematical
detail by John Jackson and Eric Jumper in 1976.
25. Flat sections over the eyes have been identified as
coins. One of the members of the Holy Shroud Guild,
Father Francis Filas, SJ claimed to be able to read the
inscriptions on the coins and that they were from the
time of Christ. Others have failed to see anything in
the blur.
26. This image is just too good to be produced by a
medieval artist.
22 The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal
The theories
Contact theory
The body was covered in oils and spices, as was common in
the time of Christ, and these were transferred by direct
contact with the cloth as it was wrapped around the body.
More oils and spices were transferred from the more prominent
body parts, such as the nose and eyebrows. There are,
therefore, imprints of these parts of the body while the
recesses remain blank.
Vaporography theory
The image is the result of a projection from the body onto
the linen. Body vapours, such as weak ammonia, which is
present from the fermentation of urea in sweat, reacted with
the spices on the cloth. The shroud acted like a photographic
plate and so produced a negative image.
A Leonardo photograph theory
Lynn Picknett and Clive Prince, in their 1966 book Turin
Shroud: In Whose Image? The Shocking Truth, claim the Shroud
is the result of a photographic technique developed in
absolute secrecy by Leonardo da Vinci in response to a
commission for the Pope, Innocent VIII. The shocking ‘truth’
is indeed shocking. They claim that the shroud is a fifteenthcentury
composite photograph of Leonardo’s head and the
body of some unfortunate fellow crucified for the purpose
by Leonardo.
Flash photolysis theory
The image is a form of scorch mark formed by a short burst
of radiation emitted by the body of Christ at the moment
of resurrection. This defies any known scientific phenomena
and is certain proof of the supernatural nature of the
The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal 23
resurrection. This is the favoured theory by the believers in
the authenticity of the Shroud.
Medieval artisan theory
The image is the work of a medieval artist. The artist used a
rubbing method with a semi-solid or dry substance. The
colouring pigment has faded with time due to reaction with
the cellulose of the fibres, temperature, evaporation and
handling. This is the favoured theory for skeptics.
The history of the shroud
1355
The linen and image, later known as The Shroud of Turin,
is first recorded in the Church of Our Lady in Lirey, a small
town in north-central France. The shroud is owned by a
soldier of fortune, Geoffroy de Charney, or de Charny,
depending on the source. Biblical relics are very popular at
this time and can be relied upon to generate significant
income for their owners.
1357
Pilgrims are flocking to see the shroud, claimed to be the
true burial shroud of Christ. The many visitors pay to see
the cloth. A skeptical bishop, Henri de Poitiers, launches
an investigation into the authenticity of the shroud and,
deciding it is not legitimate, has it hidden away.
1389
The shroud is on show again, and is investigated by Bishop
Pierre d’Arcis. Again it is deemed not to be Christ’s true
burial shroud.
24 The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal
1453
Geoffroy de Charney’s granddaughter, Margaret, regains
control of the shroud and launches a Middle Ages version of
the travelling road show with it. In 1453 she ‘gives’ the
shroud to the duke and duchess of the Royal House of
Savoy, which will later become the Italian monarchy. Those
who advocate the authenticity of the shroud like to emphasise
Margaret’s generosity in giving the shroud to the Royal
House of Savoy. (However, it is recorded that the House
of Savoy responded generously by giving Margaret two
castles.)
1532
The shroud has a proud reputation as a source of protection.
However, it is nearly destroyed in a fire in the chapel which
houses it. Molten silver from the lining of the casket falls
onto the shroud, which also displays water marks from the
same event.
1578
The shroud finally arrives in Turin, Italy, having been sold
many times en route. It is to stay in Turin and can be still
seen at the Royal Chapel of the Cathedral St John the Baptist.
1898
The shroud is photographed by Secondo Pia. On developing
the plates, the shroud image is seen in negative, which gives
a much clearer image.
A new interest in the shroud arises, amid claims that no
artist in the Middle Ages could have known about photography,
which was still centuries from discovery.
Debate about the authenticity of the Shroud of Turin
continues to rage.
The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal 25
1976
John Jackson and Eric Jumper, who work at the Air Force
Weapons Laboratory, Albuquerque, New Mexico, claim the
shroud contains unique 3D information which will enable
them to reconstruct a solid figure of Christ. The complex
mathematics could not be known by an artist in the Middle
Ages.
1977
Jackson and Jumper form STURP in March 1977. Jackson
and Jumper are also on the Executive Council for the Holy
Shroud Guild. Almost all the members of STURP are deeply
religious scientists.
1978
In October a group of American and European scientists
spend five days examining the shroud. Carbon dating is not
permitted by the Vatican on the quite reasonable grounds
that it would require some of the precious cloth to be
removed.
Joe Nickell, from the Committee for the Scientific Investigation
of Claims of the Paranormal, demonstrates a
rubbing technique known to have been used long before the
Middle Ages which produces a negative image from a basrelief
and shows no signs of brush strokes.
Thirty-two rigorously clean sticky tape tests are taken
from the shroud by STURP. Dispute over the interpretation
of these contributes to a break in the group.
1979
In November press releases from STURP quote scientists as
being convinced that the shroud is authentic.
26 The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal
1988
Three postage-stamp-sized samples are sent for carbon
dating to three independent laboratories in America,
Switzerland and England. Using accelerator mass spectrometry,
the results are in close agreement, within the accuracy
of such tests. They date the flax which was harvested to form
the Shroud of Turin linen at between 1260 and 1390. Advocates
criticise the reliability of carbon dating methods.
Skeptics claim the debate is over.
Evaluating the theories
Contact Theory
If oils and spices from the body were transferred to the cloth
by direct contact with the cloth as it was wrapped around the
body, we have a problem with the image. A cloth wrapped
around a curved body, when flattened out, would give an
expanded image of the non-horizontal parts of the body, such
as the sides, giving a grossly distorted image of the human.
The image on the shroud is a plan view, looking down on the
body. Simple geometry has ruled out this theory.
Vaporography theory
If the image is the result of a projection of body vapours
from the body onto the linen, we have a different problem
with the image. Vapours do not travel in nice straight lines,
but disperse, so the image would be blurred. The image on
the shroud is quite clear. This theory has also been rejected.
A Leonardo photograph
This claim is based on the fact that Leonardo was a genius
capable of such an extraordinary feat of science. The fact
he may have been intellectually capable of it does not justify
The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal 27
the leap to saying he therefore did it. Leonardo lived just
beyond the accepted carbon dating period. Born in 1452, he
was more likely to have completed such an amazing feat
nearer the end of his life in 1519 than the beginning.
The authors of this theory claim the disembodied look
of the shroud supports the claim that it is a composite of
the vain Leonardo’s head on the body of his model. A more
likely explanation is that the neck area is too far from the
cloth when producing the image by rubbing, hence giving
an apparent gap on the front but not the back image, or
that the cloth was moved between rubbing the head and
the body.
The believers say that the fact that the man was genuinely
crucified means it is authentic, and that our suggestion that
Leonardo crucified someone (either living or already dead)
is macabre, and therefore, for some curious reason, inconceivable
. . . However, we are dealing here not only with
uncompromising ‘heresy’, but with Leonardo, to whom the end
always and absolutely justified the means.
(Picknett & Prince 1994, p. 177.)
The fact that Leonardo’s notes do not mention the creation
of the shroud can be explained logically by the heretical
nature of the fraud and hence the life-threatening aspect of
exposure. However, those notes also do not mention the
photographic method used which was advanced enough to
generate a two-metre image, twice, on a single piece of cloth.
If he had developed this technique, why did he not leave a
photograph of himself, given his well-documented vanity?
Why would someone with his brilliant knowledge of anatomy
add blood flows to the image, given he must have known
blood does not flow after death? If he was intending to add
the blood and wounds later, why not use his own body,
of which he was known to be proud, for the entire image?
Why crucify some poor soul?
Most importantly, if Leonardo had developed photographic
techniques why did it take centuries for others to
28 The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal
gradually build the knowledge to do so? Surely he would
have mentioned such an incredible achievement and
demonstrated it on some other task.
Leonardo’s genius remains unsullied against such claims.
Flash photolysis versus medieval artisan
This leaves the flash photolysis theory, which is the theory
still favoured by believers, and the medieval artisan theory,
favoured by skeptics. These are the reasons why skeptics are
sure there is no more need to debate this one.
1. Carbon dating shows the linen to be from the Middle
Ages. End of story.
2. There are about 40 ‘authentic’ burial cloths of Christ
on display around the world. The Shroud of Turin is
merely the most famous. There is no mention in the
Bible or early Christian writing of a large burial cloth
or of any image formed at the time of the resurrection.
Surely, given the desire for miraculous proof of
the divine nature of Christ, such a relic would have
rated a mention.
3. The likeness is a negative image.The method of taking
a rubbing from a bas-relief object (a raised sculptured
figure on a flat surface) will create a negative image
because more of the rubbing pigment will be
deposited on prominent features.
4. The likeness of Christ is that of the thin, bearded man
shown in many religious art works.This shows that the
medieval artist was using the accepted image of Christ
from the day. There are no records of what the real
Jesus Christ looked like.
5. The bloodstains are redder than other parts of the
image. Bloodstains do not remain red after time.They
turn black or dark brown.These bloodstains also have
a chemical composition matching paint which was
used in medieval times.
6. It is true that there are higher concentrations of iron
The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal 29
and protein, as are found in blood, in the areas of the
bloodstains. But iron and proteins are also found in
pigments. Iron oxide is often used as a red colouring.
Iron oxide fades to yellow when dehydrated, so much
of the iron oxide has now faded to yellow.
7. There are also significant amounts of mercuric
sulphide, which is a well-known pigment called vermilion—
a red pigment.
8. There is no trace of sodium or potassium, constituents
of blood which would have been present if the stains
were truly blood.
9. Porphyrins are present in the area of the bloodstains.
These are found in blood, but they are also found in
other animal and plant products, such as those used to
make artists’ pigments.
10. Scorches on the linen show a strong reddish fluorescence
under ultraviolet radiation.The only areas of the
shroud to show this fluorescence are those which
were burnt in the fire.There is no sign of it on the rest
of the image.
11. The doubts expressed by the bishops in the fourteenth
century are supported by a letter, which still
exists, from Bishop Pierre d’Arcis to Clement VII, the
Avignon Pope, stating he knew the artist who
produced the shroud.
12. Pollen which is consistent with known species around
Jerusalem has been found on the cloth.This relates to
a claim by Max Frei, who was later to authenticate the
Hitler Diaries, now known to be fakes. Cloth was often
brought to medieval Europe from Palestine, so there is
no strong support from the pollen grains anyway.
13. The linen is a herringbone-twill weave.This weave was
not used in the first century or in Palestine. It was used
in Europe in the Middle Ages.
14. It is claimed that an artist of that time could not have
known about negative images and photography. An
artist using rubbing methods, not painting, over a basrelief
of an image of Christ would have produced a
30 The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal
negative image. He had no need for knowledge of
photography.
15. While we are talking about this medieval history
maker, the claim that an artist of the time could not
have been skilled enough to produce such an image is
pure nonsense.The human race has always had brilliant
artisans.We are not cleverer now, we just have more
scientific knowledge and technology, gradually built on
the cleverness of those before.
16. There is no sign of brush strokes on the shroud so it
cannot have been painted. True, it was probably
produced by rubbing.
17. The claim that the blood flows and anatomical details
and pathology of crucifixion are correct and beyond
the knowledge of the artists in the Middle Ages has
been denied by other pathologists and anatomists. In
fact, they claim the anatomy is elongated and not accurately
representative of human anatomy.
18. It is very commonly stated by believers that ‘artistic
methods have been ruled out as a possibility’. Far from
it. Skeptic Joe Nickell demonstrated the method used
to create the shroud by using a bas-relief and the
pigments and tools available at the time. He was able
to reproduce all the features of the original shroud,
except the carbon dating.
19. The shroud is widely claimed to be consistent with
biblical descriptions of the burial of Jesus. Bodies were
not wrapped that way in the time of Christ, nor are
there any biblical references giving such a description.
20. The claim that the shroud image contains unique 3D
information has been disputed by other mathematical
modellers, who claim the resulting body using the
proposed calculations would be distorted. However,
the image was probably produced from a 3D object, so
this claim adds nothing to the authenticity debate.
21. The church has never claimed this as an authentic
relic, however it has not discouraged the myth.
The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal 31
Finally, some words from Walter McCrone. An analytical
chemist, McCrone is president of the McCrone Research
Institute in Chicago, which is a non-profit organisation
offering courses in microscopy, crystallography and ultramicroscopy.
He was a member of STURP and part of the
investigation team working on the Shroud of Turin, who
now claims he was ‘drummed out’ when he disagreed with
some of their findings. He says:
My microanalytical work on the sticky tapes from the shroud’s
surface has proved to my satisfaction that the entire image was
produced by an artist using iron earth and vermilion pigments
in a tempera medium during the middle of the fourteenth
century . . .
The image was created by an artist who was commissioned
to paint a shroud, probably to be used in religious processions
or to be exhibited in the newly founded church at Lirey by the
de Charny family. I doubt if the artist was intending to fool
anyone, and I feel that the church vergers didn’t have to make
any conscious effort to convince the general populace that this
was the shroud of Christ . . .
Finally, I can see no possible mechanism by which the shroud
image could have been produced except as the work of an
artist. The faithful representation of all of the anatomical and
pathological markings, so well described in the New Testament,
would be difficult to produce except by an artist. They are
totally without distortion and, indeed, look exactly the way we
would have liked them to look.
(Skeptical Inquirer, 1982, vol. vi, no. 3, pp. 35–6.)
References
McCrone, Walter 1982, ‘Shroud image is the work of an
artist’, Skeptical Inquirer, vol. VI, no. 3, pp. 35–6
Mueller, Marvin M. 1982, ‘The Shroud of Turin: a critical
appraisal’, Skeptical Inquirer, vol. VI, no. 3, pp. 15–34
32 The Skeptic’s Guide to the Paranormal
Nickell, Joe 1989, ‘Unshrouding a mystery: science, pseudoscience,
and the Cloth of Turin’, Skeptical Inquirer, vol. 13,
no. 3, pp. 296–9
Nickell, Joe 1998, Looking for a Miracle: Weeping Icons, Relics,
Stigmata, Visions & Healing Cures, Prometheus Books, New
York
Picknett, Lynn and Prince, Clive 1994, Turin Shroud: In Whose
Image? The Shocking Truth Revealed, Bloomsbury, London

(глава из книги Lynne Kelly "The skeptic's guide to the paranormal". Лично сама книга лежит здесь: http://rapidshare.com/files/82458838/Sk ... normal.rar (1747 Кб)

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Туринская плащаница
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Исследования в Оксфорде подтвердили версию экспертов ФСБ о подлинности Туринской плащаницы
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=61125&cf=

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Туринская плащаница
СообщениеДобавлено: Чт мар 13, 2008 11:04 pm 
ANV писал(а):
Исследования в Оксфорде подтвердили версию экспертов ФСБ о подлинности Туринской плащаницы
http://portal-credo.ru/site/?act=news&id=61125&cf=

Она действительно подлинная, только там не отпечаток Христа. Вот и все. Фетиш оставте фетишистам.


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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Туринская плащаница
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romiros,
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
только там не отпечаток Христа
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Для тебя это так, и я спорить не буду.
Это не вопрос признания/непризнания научного факта, а вопрос веры...

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 Заголовок сообщения: Re: Туринская плащаница
СообщениеДобавлено: Чт мар 13, 2008 11:23 pm 
Ну да, можно верить в любую чепуху. Кто запрещает?
http://www.jwforum.org/viewtopic.php?f= ... 45&start=0
Лишь бы вреда не было, если конечно получится.
Вот центр православной и не только веры - Невский проспект в СПб. Храмы, соборы, церкви на каждом углу. Армянские, русские, лютеранские....всех и не упомнишь. И везде вот такие "плащеницы" и люди такие одухотворенные, а спускаешься под землю и куда все девается? 10 марта сего года девушка упала между вагонами(в метро на Невском), а люди мимо прошли. Видели все, но прошли мимо, чтобы не опоздать. И не стало двадцатилетней девушки. Так в вещах ли сила? Нет, в духе, который в людях, а он такой, что вещи святые здесь не помогают.


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